Curse

semantic · Jan 07, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Haven't seen any official info released on this yet, I don't think. I'm assuming that since character power will be essentially uncapped, it wouldn't make much sense to cap item power, or at least it wouldn't be necessary.

So what will it look like? Will weapons 'level' along with the person who's using it? Will we see 100% Charrslayer mods dropping that have a minimum level req to apply or wield properly? Will there be additional layers of mods that don't exist now and that simply won't function in structured PVP (so, on top of inscription/pommel/hilt -which are the only legal mods in GVG - they could add blades, sharpening methods or tools, hilt wrappings, tassels, etc.)?

For anyone worried about imba weapons in competitive PVP, I'm assuming they will have no trouble coming up with a method of temporarily nerfing uber weapons while they're being used in that environment.

Danax · Jan 07, 2008, 12:07 PM // 12:07

We don't know...yet

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 12:07 PM // 12:07

There's been no confirmation that character power will be uncapped.
Only that it's possible that there will be high character level cap or no character level cap.
Nothing about what that even means in relation to power level.
Could mean the number beside your name goes up past 20 and that's all there is to it.
We simply don't know.

stuntharley · Jan 07, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Maybe they should put in boobie tassels, and we walk around doing peircing damage and cause blind.

~ Dan ~ · Jan 07, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danax

We don't know...yet

Exactly. Stupid question imo.

I Will Heal You Ally · Jan 07, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Yeah maybe they even won't raise the attribute points and health/energy everytime to reach new level... They say so much, but at the end it just might be disappointing just like HoM at the beginning when they announce it's existence

Yawgmoth · Jan 07, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

This is a topic of top high interest for me. I really hope this time they do it right.

The best way would be combining the concept of no max level cap with flat power level curve. So there's no such thing as a 'perfect' weapon (max=boring), but possiblity of always getting something (even a tiny bit) better (or different). The best item system should be friendly for all types of players, casual and hardcore, should allow endless character development, without clearly set 'tiers' of equipment, so nobody will feel obliged to grind for 'next' ones and no gear based discrimination exist. Large variety of item types and mods, random generation of item stats with no max values, so even old veterans after years of play can still find something to hunt for.
And no possibility to build any item with any wanted stats from scratch - this greatly reduces the value and coolness of drops, all moddability should work just for adjusting a weapon for your build or playstyle.

And we shouldn't worry about competetive PvP as we know it will be separated from PvE world, thus unaffected by it's imbalances.

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

There's been no confirmation that character power will be uncapped.
Only that it's possible that there will be high character level cap or no character level cap.
Nothing about what that even means in relation to power level.
Could mean the number beside your name goes up past 20 and that's all there is to it.
We simply don't know.

I know people still want to believe this, but all evidence points to a power curve. Anet has said there will be a curve the higher level you get, the less power you'll gain per level, but that implies that higher level characters will still be more powerful than lower level ones.

Also, the sidekick system as described says it will raise the sidekick to the level of the main character, so that also supports a higher level = more powerful character system.

Numa Pompilius · Jan 07, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

And we shouldn't worry about competetive PvP as we know it will be separated from PvE world, thus unaffected by it's imbalances.

Actually I think we should worry about that separation.
Unbalanced PvE sucks. Unbalanced PvE is situations like the end game in Gothic II, where you're basically a god - or ridiculious scale-to-level junk like in Oblivion.
The people who complained about that PvE has been linked to PvP were the farmers, because the ideal PvE to them holds no challenge at all. If - as the inclusion of ridiculous skills like Ursan Blessing suggest - ANet is really trying to make farmers happy, then GW2 is in deep dodo, because what farmers want is a "kill all enemies in the zone and retrieve the loot" button, and if they got it they'd still whine about it being available to other players (cutting in to their profits).

Chrono Re delle Ere · Jan 07, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Will Heal You Ally

Yeah maybe they even won't raise the attribute points and health/energy everytime to reach new level... They say so much, but at the end it just might be disappointing just like HoM at the beginning when they announce it's existence

We don't even know if they will still use attribute points

I'ts a different game from Guild Wars, we can also expect walking-men-eater-Pies as mobs, we don't know ANYTHING

Longasc · Jan 07, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Actually I think we should worry about that separation.
(...)
GW2 is in deep dodo

Yep.

I think GW2 is going to smell, judging from the few design ideas we heard of so far.

This is not going to become the evolution of Guild Wars 1, this is rather a devolution.

Back to the roots, ANets re-invents the Standard MMO. Levelgrind, Itemdriven, Titlegrind.

Ironically, the link to PvP might prevent some ideas that could turn GW into another Asia grinder. Because of the need for balance and lack of uber-items.

ANet embraced all kinds of grind in GWEN, and they hopefully do no think they found the ultimate new means of non-level-based character development! GWEN and the hall reward repetitive actions and playing one char only. Skill efficiency is tied to the title tracks, the hall is based on mostly char-based achievements, too (I still see us crying because they add an imba GW2 reward to one title and useless rewards to others, or make them all crap and whatever... OK, I will stop here, enough bitching about the Hall of Monuments...^^).

If they go the itemization route, they should just admit:

The Guild Wars concept of equal levels and gear failed.

In this case they should create two separate games, Guild Wars (PvP) and World of Guildcraft (PvE), which is nothing else but the stone old level-/item-based mmorpg formula, and no longer the spirit of the original Guild Wars: Prophecies.

Isileth · Jan 07, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Yeah I really hope there isnt anyform of extra power or better gear in PvE.

People seem to think that the balance only needs to apply to PvP which is incorrect.

Its an online game, so even when not directly competing with other players in PvP you are still effecting them. Be it through the economy or getting a group anything like that.

When people can become more powerful by spending time grinding or farming, buying the "best" eq etc. It does effect others.

Plus lets face it, how many other MMOs already do that? GW is one of very few games that support skill>time. That gives them a much more open market to play in, step into time>skill and you suddenly have to fight with all the others for customers.

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

ANet embraced all kinds of grind in GWEN, and they hopefully do no think they found the ultimate new means of non-level-based character development! GWEN and the hall reward repetitive actions and playing one char only. Skill efficiency is tied to the title tracks, the hall is based on mostly char-based achievements, too (I still see us crying because they add an imba GW2 reward to one title and useless rewards to others, or make them all crap and whatever... OK, I will stop here, enough bitching about the Hall of Monuments...^^).

Here's my opinion: Reputation title tracks were introduced as a form of pseudo-leveling. Problem is, it's worse than traditional leveling, because rather than just leveling up your character and growing more powerful under the same mechanics, you have to level up individual skills under the Reputation system. So, rather than advance from level 20 -30 for example, you're advancing 4 or more different tracks from level 1 - 10, in essence, GWEN added 40 more pseudo-levels (although the benefit of being maxed out in these Titles is debateable).

I'd much rather have a traditional leveling system in GW2, than the Title Track pseudo-levels of Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

If they go the itemization route, they should just admit:

The Guild Wars concept of equal levels and gear failed.

In this case they should create two separate games, Guild Wars (PvP) and World of Guildcraft (PvE), which is nothing else but the stone old level-/item-based mmorpg formula, and no longer the spirit of the original Guild Wars: Prophecies.

That's my interpretation of what GW2 will be (assuming PvP is locked at a certain level, with set weapon stats, and that PvE will not be).

Subject to change, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Yeah I really hope there isnt anyform of extra power or better gear in PvE.

People seem to think that the balance only needs to apply to PvP which is incorrect.

Its an online game, so even when not directly competing with other players in PvP you are still effecting them. Be it through the economy or getting a group anything like that.

When people can become more powerful by spending time grinding or farming, buying the "best" eq etc. It does effect others.

Plus lets face it, how many other MMOs already do that? GW is one of very few games that support skill>time. That gives them a much more open market to play in, step into time>skill and you suddenly have to fight with all the others for customers.

Well, why do we need balance in PvE? If killing monsters is fun, why is it less fun to kill monsters at level 1 than at level 20?

Face it, Guild Wars success is for the most part because of the quality of the game with no subscription fee. I personally think the level cap actually HURT sales, and was not a selling point for the majority of players. Obviously, Anet believes that also, or else GW2 would be capped at level 20 as well.

Isileth · Jan 07, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Well, why do we need balance in PvE? If killing monsters is fun, why is it less fun to kill monsters at level 1 than at level 20?

In the current game I would say thats down to having limited access to skills and the game being very, very easy at the start.

But I must say, I along with many others still join and continue to play games using fixed or even a no level system. Its not as if they dont do well, infact they last a lot longer that most games in my experience because players can start of comeback late into the games lifespan and not be years behind others just because they have been grinding or farming the best gear.

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

In the current game I would say thats down to having limited access to skills and the game being very, very easy at the start.

But I must say, I along with many others still join and continue to play games using fixed or even a no level system. Its not as if they dont do well, infact they last a lot longer that most games in my experience because players can start of comeback late into the games lifespan and not be years behind others just because they have been grinding or farming the best gear.

True, Guild Wars is wonderful in that regard.

But, honestly, this whole jealousy of higher level characters is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if I'm a level 12 noob in WoW, as long as I am having fun.

When people start trying to keep up with the Joneses, that's when games stop being fun, and start being work... and probably a sign said person should quit playing. Because even in Guild Wars, there is somebody out there with some item that doesn't exist anymore and you'll never be able to get...

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

The low level cap in GW was also done for accessibility.
They wanted people to be able to group with other people and not worry about level differences getting in the way.

GW2 is said to have a companion system that would somehow circumvent that obstacle in a high level cap game. We'll just have to wait and see what they got in store.

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Or, making GW2 soloable is also a solution (with scalable mobs in instances).

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

That would not solve the problem of friends not being able to group because of level differences.

A problem I faced often in EQ2 and WoW, was that I simply did not play as much as my friends so I ended up no longer being able to play alongside them. In a small part it is why I eventually left.

I got bored with my main character and starting a new one in a game with a high level cap is really demoralizing, especially when I was having great difficulty in developing lasting friendships due to my casual play time increasing the level gap between myself and my friends.

I remember in WoW, the last guild I was in, I was told to level up faster as I was getting way behind. I ended up leaving that guild and playing solo for a while. Solo play is not my thing. I could not keep it up and at the same time I could not easily find people who were leveling up at the same rate I was. I felt very much alone playing that game during the last few weeks leading to my quitting. I would often sit in towns and just talk to strangers or private chat with friends as they did the high level stuff. It was getting depressing as my incentive motivation to play was slowly dying.

Guild Wars 2 really should stick to a system that avoids that.

Bryant Again · Jan 07, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I don't find high-levels concerning in GW2 because A. The whole thing is soloable and B. The companion system will buff up lower level players in your group to be as strong as you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Or, making GW2 soloable is also a solution (with scalable mobs in instances).

This is my biggest dream with GW2 right here, along with the companion scaling system.

In terms of itemization, I think the only thing we know is that there'll be no profession specific armor.

Isileth · Jan 07, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

True, Guild Wars is wonderful in that regard.

But, honestly, this whole jealousy of higher level characters is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if I'm a level 12 noob in WoW, as long as I am having fun.

When people start trying to keep up with the Joneses, that's when games stop being fun, and start being work... and probably a sign said person should quit playing. Because even in Guild Wars, there is somebody out there with some item that doesn't exist anymore and you'll never be able to get...

Sadly it does matter.

When people refuse to accept you in a group/guild because you arent level x.
When you cant team with people because you dont have "Gharots Magical armour of fire resistance +6".

If the game was completely single player no, it would not matter.
But its an online game, and as I said before that means even in PvE when you dont directly compete with others level grind and elite eq all have an effect.